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Rand Fishkin talks with Jason Barnard about the Lost and Founder.
Rand Fishkin, the Cofounder and CEO of SparkToro and Snackbar Studio, and author of “Lost and Founder, reflects on how his public association still heavily favors his past with Moz over his current ventures like SparkToro, highlighting how deeply embedded digital narratives are and how hard they are to shift.
Rand shares with Jason Barnard the realities of startups, venture capital, and the misleading myths of Silicon Valley. Rand explained the harsh truth behind venture funding—most startups fail, only a tiny few succeed, and the pressure for hypergrowth damages sustainable businesses.
He emphasized the need for entrepreneurs to abandon the outdated “minimum viable product” mindset and instead build “exceptional viable products”—like his approach with SparkToro and SnackBar.
They wrapped up by discussing the importance of aligning your business model with the life you actually want. Jason Barnard and Rand Fishkin agreed that resisting external pressure for rapid scaling brings lower stress and greater fulfillment.
What you’ll learn from Rand Fishkin
- 00:00 Rand Fishkin and Jason Barnard
- 02:13 Where Does the Knowledge Panel of Rand Fishkin Focus More, According to Jason Barnard?
- 02:30 What Information Does Google Learn About Show About Rand Fishkin as Stated by Jason Barnard?
- 03:11 Why Has Rand Fishkin Not Yet Explored or Used the Google Learn About Feature?
- 03:34 What is One of the Big Frustrations of Rand Fishkin in His Efforts to Change His Brand Identity?
- 04:00 What Can Kalicube® Do to Change the Problem of Shifting Your Brand Identity?
- 04:09 Why Did the Problem With Boowa (The Blue Dog) Weigh so Heavily on Jason Barnard in Brand Identity?
- 04:58 How Much Has the Startup Landscape Changed Since 2018, According to Rand Fishkin?
- 05:35 Why Has the Reputation of Tech Companies and Entrepreneurs Declined?
- 06:15 Why Did Many People Inside the Industry Despise Lost and Founder When It Was Published in 2018?
- 07:05 What Are the Terrible, Ugly Parts of the Venture Capital System From the Book Lost and Founder?
- 08:00 How Does the Venture Capital Funding Model Work?
- 08:30 Why Does the Venture Capital Model Expect Most Startups to Fail?
- 09:54 Why Don’t People Talk About What Happens Inside Venture-Backed Businesses?
- 10:35 Why is Being in the Position of a Company Like Moz, Making Enough but Not Big Money, so Hard?
- 11:45 Where Does the Cupcake Theory Come From?
- 11:55 What is the Exceptional Viable Product Concept?
- 12:28 What is the Minimal Viable Product Concept?
- 13:36 Why Did the Lean Startup Approach Work In the Early Days of Tech but No Longer Work Today?
- 14:35 How Did Rand Fishkin Apply the Cupcake Model in Building Sparktoro and Snackbar?
- 15:00 What Did Gia and Claire From Forget the Funnel Find During Their Product Test for Sparktoro?
- 16:09 Why Was Rebuilding the Product Less Difficult During the Private Beta Testing Phase?
- 17:02 Why is the Expectation for Products in Software, Technology, and Other Fields So Much Higher Today?
- 17:42 What is the Common Founder Mentality in Building Products?
- 18:26 Why Do You Need Investor Patience and Independence When Building a Product?
- 19: 26 Why Do Cupcake Ventures Expect a Lifecycle Return of 10 to 15 Years From Their Investments?
- 20:37 How Do You Resist the Pressure From Investors Who Are Not Very Patient?
- 21:28 How Does Cultural Pressure From the Industry Affect Startup Founders and Their Success?
- 22:21 How Does Pressure Affect the Confidence and Decision-Making of Founders in Their Role?
- 23:22 Why is it Important to Avoid Pressure From External Parties or Culture When Building a Business?
- 24:05 Why is it Important for Founders to Reject Business Strategies That Do Not Fit How They Work Best?
- 25:16 Why Do Some Founders Avoid Scaling Fast Even if it Means Leaving Money on the Table?
This episode was recorded live on video June 17th 2025
Links to pieces of content relevant to this topic:
Rand Fishkin
Transcript from Rand Fishkin with Jason Barnard on Fastlane Founders And Legacy. Lost and Founder
[00:00:00] Rand Fishkin: The venture capital environment creates a path that is successful for extraordinarily small numbers of people and far fewer than most tech entrepreneurs and people who join tech startups and are recruited and work in that field understand and believe. And the complexities of that environment, the competing demands and the incentive structure is much more complicated than what’s traditionally been presented to entrepreneurs and founders. And I am trying to open that Pandora’s box and take out all the ugly secrets and show the whole ecosystem for what it is, which is not all terrible and bad. There are good parts of it, and I think some parts are worth keeping.
[00:00:56] Rand Fishkin: Which is why I’m still an entrepreneur and a founder and someone who raises money. Not from venture capitalists anymore, I still believe in parts of that world and I still love parts of that job but I think we can optimize away from the parts that are terrible and ugly and have poor incentives.
[00:01:15] Narrator: Fastlane Founders and Legacy with Jason Barnard. Each week, Jason sits down with successful entrepreneurs, CEOs and executives, and gets them to share how they mastered the delicate balance between rapid growth and enduring success in the business world. How can we quickly build a profitable business that stands the test of time and becomes our legacy?
[00:01:38] Narrator: A legacy we’re proud of. Fastlane Founders and Legacy with Jason Barnard.
[00:01:44] Jason Barnard: Hi everybody and welcome to another Fastlane Founders and Legacy. I’m here with a quick hello and we’re good to go. Welcome to the show, Rand Fishkin.
[00:01:56] Rand Fishkin: Howdy, Jason. Good to be here again.
[00:01:58] Jason Barnard: It’s lovely to have you back. So this is going to be a shorter episode than usual. We’re going to be talking about startups and being the boss of a startup and investors and moving fast and breaking things and how difficult it is and is it more difficult today than it was before? All of that in a moment.
[00:02:13] Jason Barnard: But before that, my thing is Brand SERP and I always have to show people’s Knowledge Panels. Yours what’s absolutely delightful. Got all the facts straight, pretty much. It’s unfortunately focusing more on Moz than it does on SparkToro, but I don’t think that’s a huge problem for you.
[00:02:30] Jason Barnard: But then I also looked at Google Learn About, which I really like because it’s an educational kind of platform where you ask a question. It gives you context on the left, it gives you an interview right in the middle. It explains who you are. Gives some of the topics about you, key facts about Rand Fishkin with links through to what is an entrepreneur, which seems a bit weird as an idea, but there you go.
[00:02:51] Jason Barnard: And this is their experiment in America that we don’t get in Europe right now, but I’ve been playing around with it a lot. And for me, this is where search and research is going in contexts and education and I actually quite like it. I enjoy it. Have you been playing around with that, with that at all, or not at all?
[00:03:11] Rand Fishkin: I have not been playing with that particular iteration. I know lots of folks who enjoy fooling around with that kind of thing. What are the large language models saying about their brand and I have done some research into that work. In particular, I was super interested, Jason, as I’m sure you were into, how does a large language model decide which things to place in there?
[00:03:34] Rand Fishkin: So in my case, one of the big frustrations is because I have 20 years of people saying, Rand Fishkin is associated with Moz and Search Engine Optimization. It’s going to take a long time and a lot of web content to change that to what it is today, which is SparkToro and Audience Research and Snack Bar Studio and Indie video games.
[00:03:56] Rand Fishkin: That’s going to take a long time.
[00:04:00] Jason Barnard: What we do at Kalicube® is change the focus without actually necessarily having to drown it. It’s improving the importance of the existing information. I had the problem with Boowa, or the Blue Dog, and we can talk about that later, is that has immense weight because it was so successful in the noughties, because it’s in IMD, because I made records, because there’s so much edutainment and entertainment information out there, it weighed very heavily and I found that I didn’t need to outweigh it. I needed to outsmart it. To change Google’s perception and start saying, Jason Barnard, an entrepreneur and digital marketer, rather than just burnouts a cartoon blue dog.
[00:04:39] Jason Barnard: But today we’re talking about Fastlane. Sorry, we’re talking about Lost and Founder because I can see the word founder twice on the screen. You wrote that back in 2018 talking about the challenges of Silicon Valley mythology about startups. How much has changed since then?
[00:04:58] Rand Fishkin: Here’s the strange thing about Lost and Founder is that I think today it feels more relevant and more prescient than it did at the time it was published. So I think, when I published Lost and Founder, there was still a golden era of venture capital startup funding and that ecosystem existing. And today especially, you know, post New American administration, funding has dried up and gone to hell.
[00:05:35] Rand Fishkin: I think that the perception of tech companies, and especially of tech entrepreneurs as heroes of American capitalism and these remarkable people in the world, that reputation has gone to hell. And mostly that is the fault of a few very notable people rather than the entire ecosystem of all the small and medium players.
[00:05:59] Rand Fishkin: But I can say with confidence, a lot of people who read Lost and Founder now and leave reviews for it say things to the effect of, yeah, I know all this, this makes sense. I get it. Whereas in 2018, you saw a lot of pushback. When it was published, there were a ton of people inside the industry who despised the book and thought it did not represent reality.
[00:06:26] Rand Fishkin: The other big thing that I would say about it is that the venture capital environment creates a path that is successful for extraordinarily small numbers of people and far fewer than most tech entrepreneurs and people who join tech startups and are recruited and work in that field, understand and believe. And the complexities of that environment, the competing demands and the incentive structure is much more complicated than what’s traditionally been presented to entrepreneurs and founders. And I am trying to open that Pandora’s box and take out all the ugly secrets and show the whole ecosystem for what it is, which is not all terrible and bad. There are good parts of it, and I think some parts worth keeping, which is why I’m still an entrepreneur and a founder and someone who raises money, not from venture capitalists anymore. But I still believe in parts of that world and I still love parts of that job. But I think we can optimize away from the parts that are terrible and ugly and provide poor incentives.
[00:07:44] Jason Barnard: And the terrible, ugly part is aiming for profit at all costs going too fast.
[00:07:52] Rand Fishkin: Let’s see. The terrible, ugly part is, I think there’s 13 or 14 chapters and each one of them focuses on one of those. To list all the complexities would be challenging in the short format but you can broadly think of it as venture investors raising money from LPs, limited partners. They have obligations to those limited partners, and they have a fund structure that demands a certain level of return and expects a consistently, very high level of failure and destruction.
[00:08:30] Rand Fishkin: So let’s say Jason, you and I start a venture fund. We go out and raise $200 million from a bunch of our extremely rich friends and high net worth funds and banks and maybe college endowments, those kinds of places. And then we put that money to work by investing in let’s say a hundred companies over the next three years with the expectation that 95 of those companies will die and we in the following four, five to six years that we’ve invested in them. And we won’t have to sit on their boards and we won’t have to put time and energy into them. They’ll just go away.
[00:09:08] Rand Fishkin: We’ll have lost a few million dollars on each one, and that’s okay. And one or two companies will make somewhere between 20 to a hundred times their money back. Basically pay for the entire fund and all the failures. And then there’ll be three or four companies that sort of do a little bit like what Moz did, honestly, which is grow fast for a while and then get to a plateauing point and sell for a disappointing number, but still a number that makes us maybe two to five times our money back and those few middle of the road disappointments and the 95 companies that completely die after funding get almost no coverage. People don’t talk about what happens inside those businesses, what happens to the people who work there, what happens to the founders, how the investors treat it. But they do talk about the one or two winners, and unfortunately, that bias creates a lot of false perception about how the industry works.
[00:10:12] Jason Barnard: And we don’t really see the 95% or even the two or three that make it reasonably well. And being in the position of a Moz and making it well enough to make some money, but not well enough to make the big money and not badly enough to be forgotten about. Is that the hardest seat to be sitting in?
[00:10:35] Rand Fishkin: I don’t know. Maybe because it lasts so long and uses so much of your time. I was at Moz for 17 years, which is quite a long period of time. I think there’s frustration around that, but I don’t know. I’ve talked to entrepreneurs who had their thing invested in and it failed in the first two or three years.
[00:10:55] Rand Fishkin: And I don’t want to play the who’s pain is greater game, but I think it’s probably them.
[00:11:03] Jason Barnard: Yeah. Now, moving on to a different topic. I seem to remember it was you who was talking about cupcakes.
[00:11:12] Rand Fishkin: Cupcakes?
[00:11:14] Jason Barnard: Yeah. When I created Kalicube®, I read something by you and I think, I’m pretty sure it was you.
[00:11:19] Jason Barnard: And it was saying, don’t build the whole cake. Build old cupcakes, build just enough for it to work, and then build another one on top. And so at Kalicube®, we have a cupcake theory, which we stole shamelessly from you, and it works quite well. The idea is don’t try and make the whole wedding cake at once.
[00:11:40] Jason Barnard: Make it in small cupcakes and it becomes a wedding cake. You don’t remember saying that?
[00:11:45] Rand Fishkin: So I believe this was a blog post I wrote called, Exceptional Viable Products Rather Than Minimal Viable Products. The concept is that if you are trying to sell wedding cakes, for example, giant big wedding cakes, making a cupcake and validating that you’ve got great icing, your cake design is beautiful, you have all the equipment that you need to make all the pieces of the cake, the cake dough itself is delicious and the right texture and consistency, and you can make lots of them. That’s a great idea. Rather than what’s called a minimal viable product, which might be, for example, a little square that’s just dough, and that minimal viable product comes from Eric Reese’s, the Lean Startup, where the idea is to create the smallest, crappiest version of a thing that you could potentially sell to a customer.
[00:12:50] Rand Fishkin: And the reason I disagree with it generally, and I’m in favor of what you described as the cupcake model, or I described as the exceptional viable product, is that you, in the days of the Lean Startup, which was, 07, 08, 09, you are competing against almost no other players in the software and tech world.
[00:13:11] Rand Fishkin: There were less than one 100th of the number of companies that exist today at that time. Because there was such small competition by simply solving a problem with software or technology, you could validate whether there was a market there and then you could move fast and break things and become Facebook or whatever it was at least one in 10,000 of you could. And my assertion is that 10 years on from that time period in 2018 when I wrote the book, that did not work anymore. You had to be an exceptional product. Basically, if you made a cupcake and there were 20 other cupcake providers in town, why was anyone going to buy yours?
[00:13:58] Rand Fishkin: It had to be, was it, did it taste better? Did you have better margins? Did you have better marketing? Was it a branding play? Was it a design? An artistic design play? Was it a story-based company? You needed something that was going to be exceptional beyond what was existing in the market already.
[00:14:18] Rand Fishkin: And that’s why you needed a cupcake rather than a cube of dough.
[00:14:24] Jason Barnard: A cupcake rather than a cube of dough. Delightful. Is that how you’ve built SparkToro?
[00:14:30] Rand Fishkin: Yeah, absolutely.
[00:14:31] Jason Barnard: So you followed your own advice?
[00:14:33] Rand Fishkin: Oh yeah, definitely and SnackBar too, right? SnackBar, the first game for that company, is in progress now, and we just built a demo that we tested with maybe, 60, 75 people.
[00:14:47] Rand Fishkin: And found that we had to go back to the drawing board on one particular part of the game’s core loop. We had the same experience at SparkToro when Casey and I built the first version at the end of 2019. We tested it. We actually used Gia and Claire from Forget The Funnel, and they ran a big test for us with about a hundred sort of testers, product testers. All folks in marketing who we thought were going to be our core customer. And when they tested it, what they found was people were not resonating with the product, mostly because of the visualization and presentation layer, not because of the core data behind it.
[00:15:26] Rand Fishkin: And so we went back to the drawing board and over sort of Christmas holidays of 2019 into 2020, and then Q1 of 2020, we redesigned and re-visualize the product. And when we launched in April 2020, which was not a great time to launch, you might have remembered that other things were going on in April 2020.
[00:15:46] Rand Fishkin: We actually were shockingly successful those first six months and managed to break even profitability by, I think it was October or November.
[00:15:55] Rand Fishkin: Kind of remarkable.
[00:15:57] Jason Barnard: Okay. And during that period of time, when you’re taking the whole thing down and building it back up again, number one that’s a really difficult decision to make and it takes a lot of self-awareness to do it.
[00:16:09] Rand Fishkin: It was much made much easier by the fact that the product wasn’t live. This was private beta testing, which I think is, again, that’s what we’re doing for SnackBar, right? You can’t go to SnackBar’s website and download the demo and play it right now.
[00:16:22] Rand Fishkin: And by the time we probably will, we’ll launch some demos for Steam Fest or other game events that will have to be an extremely polished, 95 out of a hundred type of product before we’re willing to let it out in the wild. And I feel the same way about SparkToro and that is because products are no longer judged in the way that they were judged 10 or 15 years ago in the tech field or the video game world, which is, wow, this is really interesting.
[00:16:56] Rand Fishkin: And quite cool. And I can imagine that in a few years as they keep iterating on it, it’s going to be amazing. Now, the expectation for products in software, technology, video games, physical products, you name it, is so high because there is so much, competition and so many fantastic products in almost every field. The level of judgment that people are going to have is, an order of magnitude higher than it was 15 years ago.
[00:17:26] Jason Barnard: Which partially explains the problem we had with Kalicube Pro™. We launched it as a SaaS product, and it went okay, but people, it wasn’t good enough to be used by people who didn’t know how I think.
[00:17:39] Rand Fishkin: Yeah. I think that.
[00:17:40] Jason Barnard: And I didn’t test it.
[00:17:42] Rand Fishkin: This is a challenge that I have too all the time. There’s the founder mentality of, if it solves my own problem, it must be a good product. And Eric Reese actually popularized this as well in the Lean startup. So did Paul Graham back when he was writing for, Y Combinator and was worshiped as this startup and entrepreneurial guru.
[00:18:04] Rand Fishkin: And I just don’t think that those rules apply today. It’s not the way. You can’t build a product that scratches your own niche and no one else’s. You need lots of validation, market and audience research, plenty of testing.
[00:18:22] Jason Barnard: Which means you need investor patience.
[00:18:26] Rand Fishkin: I agree with investor patience absolutely. And I also think you need a lot of independence from your investors. You need a timeframe and a model for returns that matches the kind of company you’re building. And very frankly, I am deeply frustrated that I think companies like yours and mine, which are, what I call sort of small scale or mid-scale SaaS trying to do potentially millions or tens of millions of dollars of recurring revenue. It’s fine if it takes a decade or two to get there, right to those places, right? We can be patient and we’re happy to run a $1 million business for a while and a $5 million business for a while and then get somewhere.
[00:19:07] Rand Fishkin: Those types of businesses are completely unacceptable to venture investors. The fund that you and I started our mythical fund that we started.
[00:19:17] Jason Barnard: 200 million dollars. I remember.
[00:19:21] Rand Fishkin: Yeah. We will come up with a good name for it. It’ll be great. Cupcake ventures. When cupcake ventures puts money in, our LPs expect a lifecycle return of maybe 10, maybe maximum 15 years.
[00:19:34] Rand Fishkin: And so the companies that we invest in have to produce the returns that they’re going to produce maybe five to 10 years after we invest, right? Because we’re not putting all the money into every company in year one. And as a result, our time pressures essentially find companies that are going to grow very fast, exit at high numbers quickly, reach the public markets quickly or die trying. And die trying is totally fine, but stuck in the middle waiting patiently for them to get to, from 5 to 10 million in revenue. That is an unacceptable sort of model to invest in. And so we try and bias against both companies like that and also founders with that level of maturity and patience. We are looking for move fast and break things kind of people.
[00:20:28] Jason Barnard: Yeah. And so you get the investor on board and they’re not going to be very patient. How do you resist the pressure?
[00:20:37] Rand Fishkin: Don’t raise money from those people, right? That’s the first thing to do. The second is, I will say this, and I foolishly didn’t realize it when I was CEO of Moz, I had the power to say no.
[00:20:49] Rand Fishkin: I had the power to say, friends, I’m sorry. We’re going to wait. We’re going to go slower. We’re going to build things, right? We’re going to take our time getting from, at the time, I think, the goal was get from 30 to 50 million. And I didn’t have the tenacity or the self-confidence. That was what I really missed.
[00:21:07] Rand Fishkin: I still felt like a kid. I felt like I was supposed to follow in the footsteps of all these, great entrepreneurs of Silicon Valley. And I felt like a failure when the company only grew by 50%.
[00:21:26] Jason Barnard: Right? Yeah. I was going to say peer pressure, but it’s not peer pressure. It’s pressure from the industry and what the industry expect from what you said earlier.
[00:21:34] Rand Fishkin: Yeah. Cultural pressure.
[00:21:35] Jason Barnard: Yeah. They want that the two out of the hundred that are going to work and they’re saying it’s going to be you, it’s going to be you, it’s going to be you. And you were in the three and that was painful.
[00:21:44] Rand Fishkin: Painful.
[00:21:45] Jason Barnard: I’m looking at this because before the show we were talking of I mean, I had a company back in the noughties, it was a painful exit. It wasn’t a lot of fun. I’m actually looking at it thinking the person that I was working with, the investor, was actually quite patient and it wasn’t as bad as I thought. Which is an interesting point because I think you are saying you felt like a kid. I felt like a kid as well. It was 15 years ago, so I was more or less your age.
[00:22:14] Jason Barnard: And still feel like a kid. Do you still feel like that or do you feel much more confident and self-assured in your role?
[00:22:21] Rand Fishkin: I do. Whatever’s been going on the last 5, 6, 7 years, I do feel a lot less pressure and a lot more, pressure is not the right word. I feel an immense amount of pressure to make Snack Bar successful and to make SparkToro successful. I feel that pressure strongly from all the sort of world events, right?
[00:22:47] Rand Fishkin: I think that the world events are making me feel extremely scared for the future of what I thought the United States was and what I thought global politics and structures would be. And the only way that I think about how do I handle that fear and protect people that I care about and help other people is tragically it seems to be that money’s the only thing that kind of solves that, which sucks. That’s not great, but also let me work hard to try and do that. So I feel that pressure. But what I don’t feel is pressure from external parties or cultural forces to do things in a way that is not commensurate with my own belief systems and the way that I work best. That is incredibly freeing and it means that the stress level on a daily basis is much lower than any day I had at Moz.
[00:23:48] Jason Barnard: Yeah, I was going to say that. I’ve had a similar experience in that I don’t feel the so much pressure from outside, but it’s still there. And people tell me, you should do this, you should do that, this is what you should do. And it’s really difficult to just say, actually, that just simply doesn’t suit me. You might be right. I might make a fortune doing that, but it doesn’t skew.
[00:24:05] Rand Fishkin: I love being able to say, Hey, that’s a great idea. And for a different kind of company, I can completely see. I’ll give you a good example.
[00:24:14] Rand Fishkin: SparkToro. If we had an onboarding specialist team, maybe four or five people who helped onboard every customer and talked with them and were their account executives and they built relationships with them, we could almost certainly lower churn massively and increase adoption and usage.
[00:24:32] Rand Fishkin: And people get more value from the tool ’cause have someone to talk to and we’re unwilling to do it. Because Casey and I have no interest in managing a team of, five or six people around the world who talk to customers and build that up and have that sort of formality. Nope, sorry.
[00:24:48] Rand Fishkin: Spark Toro is always going to be a self-service product because that’s the kind of company we want to build and run. And so we leave it in the hands of essentially ourselves to build a simple enough, useful enough product that almost anyone can figure it out on their own without the support of one of these folks, and we recognize that we’re leaving money on the table.
[00:25:09] Rand Fishkin: That’s okay.
[00:25:11] Jason Barnard: I think that’s a really great way to end it because that’s how I felt a couple of weeks ago. Somebody was saying to me, you should be doing this, you should be doing that. And I was saying, and they say you’re leaving money on the table. I actually don’t mind because day to day I’m not stressed. Day-to-day I am not worried. I obviously worry about the whole company and what we’re trying to achieve. But if I do that, which was scaling up as fast as we possibly could, I will just feel so much pressure every day and I won’t be happy.
[00:25:38] Rand Fishkin: Yeah. Yeah. and here, here’s one of those crazy things people play these games, right? Sometimes you’re with your friends at dinner, with your partner or something and they say, how much would I have to pay you to eat at Arby’s every day for a year? Oh God, that’s really terrible offer. Okay. Maybe a hundred thousand dollars, for a hundred thousand dollars.
[00:26:02] Rand Fishkin: Yeah. And I like playing this game realistically in my head. I like playing this game with all sorts of things in my life. Imagine if I made an extra million dollars personally in the next five years from building this team. But those five years involved days that were filled with one-on-ones and meetings, recruiting, hiring, letting people go, bringing new people on.
[00:26:26] Rand Fishkin: All the stress of managing a team. How much would I have to be? How much would I have to get to make it worth that? And because I’ve been relatively financially successful in the past, the answer is now, there’s no price. I’m too old and there’s no price that you can pay me to have consistently bad, frustrating, stressful days for many years to come. That’s just how it is.
[00:26:56] Jason Barnard: Brilliant. I was wrong before. This is the best time to end it. Thank you so much, Rand. That was brilliant. A quick goodbye to end the show. Thank you, Rand.
[00:27:09] Rand Fishkin: Thanks for having me, buddy.
[00:27:10] Narrator: Your corporate and personal brands are what Google and AI say they are. We can give you back control. Kalicube®.
Join Rand Fishkin and Jason Barnard for this week’s episode of Fastlane Founders and Legacy!
Scheduled for 17 June 2025 at 18 H CET (Paris)
The event is 100% free:
Organized by Kalicube.
